We're not trying to simplify things, but to clarify

Interview with Nigel Holmes after his presentation at the Dutch Infographic Conference 2009 in Figi Zeist - by Frédérik Ruys

In 1977 you moved to the US because you assumed it was easier to earn a living with information design than in the UK. did you ever regret that decision? Do information designers still have to move to the states, or can we also make a living from infographics over here in Europe?
I never once regretted moving to the US! When I left England in 1977, information graphics hardly even had a name. There were good designers doing good work, but it seemed to me that our work was not valued as a profession. As soon as I started to work at Time Magazine in New York, I felt that I was appreciated, and that whatever contribution I made to the magazine was valued and made a difference.
Now it’s different. One certainly does not have to come to the US to make a living from information graphics, nor to be appreciated.

Defining an infographic

Paul Mijksenaar once said: the best information graphics don’t need any words. Do you agree, given the fact you’re famous for a lot of pictograms and the publication of “Wordless Diagrams”?
“Wordless Diagrams” was more of an exercise to see what I could do without words than it was a crusading manifesto stating that diagrams do not need words. I understand Paul’s comment: it has to do with being visual, rather than being verbal. To get the message quickly, anyone should be able to SEE it straightaway (rather than READ it). There is something to that. But actually most information graphics do use words. They need to, because some things are better described in words and other things are better described in pictures. So the best information graphics for me are the ones that strike the right balance between words and pictures.

It must be really hard to avoid using too many metaphors. Are there subjects where you prefer not to use metaphors? Biology,for instance, or chemistry? Metaphors can certainly be overdone. Perhaps I used too many when I started at Time. Now I’ll only use a metaphor if it fits exactly. But I do find that editors love using metaphors, and often suggest them when commissioning me. They feel that the information needs more than a clear exposition to help readers understand, and part of the time they are right. The rest of the time it looks forced and unnecessary. But no subject should be excluded from the possible use of metaphor. In fact some of the best use of metaphor has been for subjects like biology and chemistry. Designers (and editors) just have to be careful.

In your infographic-self-portrait you state that one of your most important assets is easy access to both sides of the brain. What i meant was that information graphics really have two parts: creativity and analysis, and those attributes naturally come in different amounts for different people. Some people are very creative , but are less interested in numbers; other people are very number-oriented but not particularly creative. The first people might create a wonderful-looking graphic, but with less regard for the facts. The second people might produce a factually correct chart or graphic, but it might be a little dull to look at. This two- sided argument is what brought me a lot of trouble when I was at Time Magazine. Some critics thought I was just an illustrator adding a few numbers to a drawing. If that is what I was doing, they were right.

But I’ll defend (most) of my work at Time by saying that in a publication for the general reader, some subjects, especially complex ones, need a friendly introduction to help the reader understand what the diagram is about. And because that reader is a busy person, who might otherwise skip over a whole article thinking it uninteresting to him or herself, that graphic “introduction” must be communicated instantly. So what i was trying to do was to attract readers with drawings that explained the subject of the chart the moment the looked at it. Of course, the job of an information designer is to inform, not just attract, so what I had to deliver the information very quickly after the initial “introduction”/ attraction. If the illustration ever got in the way of the information, I failed. If the illustration helped the reader’s understanding, I succeeded.

For some reason, I find it exhilarating to switch off one side of my brain and just concentrate on the other. So I enjoy thinking up ideas on the creative side, and I (almost) equally enjoy decyphering numbers and facts on the analytical side. It probably helps that I’m a Gemini!

Layout editors, especially in newsrooms, often consider an infographic like a photo or an illustration, neglecting the fact that an infographic also contains text. What’s the percentage of text within an infographic?
Yes, it’s all too easy for the layout department to think of graphics as just spaces that have to be filled. As to a percentage of words versus image, this completely depends on the individual situation. I have done pieces with no words at all (such as those in “Wordless Diagrams”), but most pieces do have more or less text, and setting rules or making a formula for this is wrong. Clearly if there is only a small space for the graphic, there will be fewer words; and if the graphic is just repeating the text of the article it goes with, then the words can be minimal—because in that case the reader only needs the graphic part to help him or her understand the message. The important thing is to understand that words are usually vital to a complete story, and that therefore the graphic will have words associated with it, and furthermore that designers should be the ones who write that text. The designer’s text can always be edited if the language is not quite right, but just for grammar and spelling, not for meaning. If the designer cannot write the text, they probably have not really understood the subject they are dealing with.

Humor

The infographics of the New York Times are an inspiration to many. You’ve also said you are a great admirer of their work. But in their infographics there isn’t much room for humor - one important aspect of your work. Is this newspaper taking itself too seriously?
This is an interesting point. I do use humor whenever possible; but first it must be appropriate. The NYTimes is a serious paper, they are serious about getting facts right, and information graphics are about facts. That is why I respect and admire the work they do. The information pieces I have done for them (as opposed to the illustrations I’ve done for them, which all have included humor) have themselves been pretty straightforward. But with a serious piece, a designer can still use wit. Wit and humor are tools that, when used properly, can get readers into a state of mind that really helps them understand better. Comic artist Gerrit de Jager, who also spoke at the Dutch infographic conference, is also disappointed by the fact there’s a lack of fun at reading most infographics. Of course there’s common sense that helps to decide whether or not humor is apropriate with the subject. But did you ever have a project where you had a funny little detail which wasn’t any fun to your client/editor/readers?
This has happened sometimes; but not often, because I usually discuss the tone of the piece before starting. I think the situation that most often occurs has more to do with the dreadful Political Correctness movement that is so prevalent in the US. Of course cartoonists feel that the most, since they often use stereotypes of one sort or another to get their message across. But it does happen in information graphics, too. Sometimes when I use a little black icon to represent a person (not a man or a woman, just a person), I’ll get a comment back saying it looks like a man, or even a black man, and why aren’t women and children included? Then: could we have a more ethnic variety, say some hispanics and asians? This is the wrong road to go down for information graphics (unless the point of the graphic is about ethnic mix). Will we soon be expected to include people who are fat, those who are “height-challenged” (how’s that for a politically correct term!), or those in wheelchairs? Besides, who says all women wear skirts? And have these PC complainers heard about kilt- wearing Scotsmen? A symbol is a mark that stands for something, it is not a picture of it.

Fitting into the web

Webgraphics, whether animated and/or interactive, is an entirely different medium. Still, most editors assume you can copy/paste the infographic straight into the web - not realising how it affects font readability, nor how it works on different-sized monitors. You’re an explanation designer; which specialists do you want in your team to make the best webgraphic?
Technicians who can translate my ideas into web-ready files. As a designer who uses the web a great deal, I can see what works and what does not, I’ll be responsible for the size of the fonts, and how much scrolling there should be. But I am not able (yet!) to make anything work on the web, since I am rooted in print technologies. But I believe the principles of explanation, simplicity, editing and clarity are the same in both print media and web media. So I need a team that helps me with the technical side.

You say ‘yet’! A lot of information designers for print are still struggling whether or not they should improve their webskills. And if they do; in what field. Scripting? Programming? Video-editing? Flash? Which webskill have you chosen to improve?
Flash. My son is going to teach me, so i can do basic things myself, and also understand what is possible, and what is really hard to do when I get someone else (him!) to do it for me.

Many newsrooms are still figuring out how to implement animated and interactive infographics on the web. One big difference with an interactive infographic is that you totally lose the sense of control— the order that the reader is consuming your information. Is it possible to combine clarity with the extensive (exhausting...) possiblities of interaction? or is an animated infographic always a safer method?
It is a “safer” route to understanding if the graphic is an animated piece that the reader just watches. But that denies the medium one of its main attributes: the ability of the user (that is, the next step from being a “reader”) to interact with the information, and choose the route he or she wants to follow. I’m struggling with that loss of control, but it is something that must be faced. Interactivity gives the user a sense that they are participating, not just being an audience. For some time now, I have involved audiences in my own lectures and presentations, by getting them to participate, up on the stage with me, in building living charts for the rest of the audience to see. When I ask for volunteers to come up and help, I seldom have to ask twice before people are next to me, ready to play! The demonstration we create together is not just what I am asking them to do, it is greater than that because their participation always brings something of their own to it.

You described your animated infographics as a family affair; your son Rowland is animating your design, while your wife’s stepfather is sound engineer. This collaboration resulted in great (and probably also affordable) infographics. But aren’t you afraid that these complex (but fun to do!) projects are too costly for most clients?
Yes, they are too costly for most clients! (But just to set the record straight, I do pay Rowland and Lenny when the job is for a paying client, and not just a demonstration piece that I want to make. The vampire piece was for Good Magazine, and they paid us, but the money did not really pay our expenses, let alone the creative side.) It’s a problem that I will have to tackle, because I want to do more. The next animated piece is for the DD4D information graphics conference in Paris in June. I cannot go to the conference, so we are making a film about humor in information graphics that they will show there instead of hearing me live.

So, the main asset of webgraphics is not interactivity, but the possibility of always having up to date information...?
Two of the assets are interactivity and updating; clearly being able to easily update things that need changing is a terrific advantage, with very little cost, over print. But the addition of movement and sound are almost as important, at least for me. Combining voice and movement with text and graphics to explain something is a magical mix.

During your presentation you said it’s hard to fit a spreadsize infographic into your iphone. But your animation on vampire energy fits perfectly on your iphone screen. Or do you believe that postersize infographics will never disappear?
Clearly, large infographics must be adapted to the web. This is where a clear understanding of the difference between the two media is important. The vampire film was made for YouTube (via Good Magazine), so the size of the type, the mix of pictorial images, text and sound effects was designed for internet viewing. The whole thing was completely reworked from the print version which appeared on one page in the magazine. Putting that print image on the web would have been useless.

Style or culture?

One fascinating thing about Malofiej, the world infographic summit in Pamplona, is the meeting of different cultures. South American infographics look sometimes to me like colourful tapestry, Asian - especially Chinese - can be compared to a manga cartoon with a lot of violence. Although impressive, their communication has nothing to do with ‘keeping it simple’. Is their style an evolution process, or is it a cultural thing?
It’s a cultural thing. Definitely. And I applaud those cutural differences. When I was a judge at Malofiej, i was at first horrified by some of the entries, but I came to realize that they were just right for their intended audience. Why should we European and American designers set ourselves up as the only people who know how to do information graphics? Did we learn nothing from our colonial ancestors who tried to impose a certain way of doing things on unsuspecting countries? Long live cultural difference!

In an interview by John Grimwade (‘Malofiej 11’, 2003), you said “3d is just a fase. While it will remain part of an artist’s arsenal of tools, it will pass away as the prevailing trend for infographics, as all fashions do: the fashion for flat or cartoony illustrations”. So, 3d is the temporary cultural thing of the western world?
That was 6 years ago; the worst of it has almost gone already. Thank goodness! Actually, there will always be a place for 3d; it’s just the excessive over-use of it (especially for news graphics) that was and is wrong. Properly used, it can still dazzle while clarifying and explaining. Look at the work of Brian Christie.

You once stated: “the complexity of an infographic depends on the frequency of the publication”. By that you meant that the infographic in a daily reaches much sooner saturation point than in a monthly magazine. So you must very much like the infographics of the guardian...?
I think a daily paper should generally have simpler graphics than a magazine. There’s something about the daily paper that should be read one day and thrown away the next day. A magazine is around much longer, and is printed on better paper, so there can be more and finer detail. This is not to say that there have not been really great, large and complicated graphics in newspapers (the New York Times, for one).

Contacts with clients

Did you ever reject a job because you felt problems with your conscience? That the client deliberately wanted to change information you thought to be absolutely right? YES! And I was amazed at how blatant they were trying to cover up something, or make financial figures look better than they really were.

During your presentation at the dutch infographics conference you showed a great example of a company, asking to update the visualization of their network (left image). You designed a crystal clear organogram (right image), which the company thought to be too simple. They wanted the company to look much more complex. In the end, did you accept the assignment? NO! They needed a different designer, who would do what they asked. If I had the time I would have tried to persuade them to see my way, but I suspected that it would have been futile in this case, and that i would have neen wasting my time. Before coming the states from England, I had an assistant, and occasionally I had to take work on to keep himbusy; I probably would have taken that job on. Now I work by myself so my time is precious, but I can turn work down.

When working on an infographic, you prefer to talk with the top of the firm, instead of the designer firm who hired you. Because when you get access to the top, “the job goes so much more smoothly”. Is that because most designers are not content driven and don’t understand the communicating process as well as an information designer?
That’s part of the reason. They have a job to do, and it’s probably not making information graphics, so they are happy to give me the freedom to talk to the client (or editor). The real problem, however, is when a design firm gets in the way of a clear line of communication between myself and the person who really knows the answers to my often very detailed questions. This is a case of an art director or project designer who wants to keep control of the project; and they may have a point if they are an outside design firm. They ahve been hired by a client and the job includes information graphics as well as other design work. The design firm wants to make a unified presentation to their client; I am merely the third party, so they presume that everything has to go through them.

The future

In your working biography by Steven Heller’ you say: “scientist, economists, statisticians and others have languages of their own; that’s largely how they keep their jobs; we can’t understand them, so we’re not in the club. Information designers can change that.” I really hope you’re right. But if information designers ever succeed, wouldn’t that also be the end of most solicitors, real estate agents, legal experts, barristers and all other professionals who are keeping their work so complicated for the public?

Yes! And wouldn’t that be the right thing? But just remember information designers are not trying to simplify things, we are trying to clarify things, and that means getting rid of professional jargon that clouds meaning in self-importance.

You’ve been working - for ages! - on a children’s adventure book. are there any infographics involved? can you reveal something about that project?

Yes, it has been ages! It was a story I told to my son on holiday in St. Kitts one Christmas. He is now 35, with children of his own! The main character is so small that you cannot see him. He teams up with four whole-sized explorers to go on an expedition to India. The story is very involved, and does include quite a few information graphics: maps and diagrams. There are also references to technology that have now become almost obsolete in the nearly 30 years since Rowland first heard it. So whenever I go back to it, I have to wonder whether this should still be set in 1980, or should I update it? My agent showed it to a number of publishers who were very interested, but they all wanted me to finish it before committing themselves.

Part of me is secretly hoping that the recession will hit so hard in the states, that I have no work to do. Then I will finish the book!